Zuck on:
* Llama 4, benchmark gaming, open vs source
* Intelligence explosion, business models for AGI
* DeepSeek/China, export controls, & Trump
* Orion glasses, AI relationships, and not getting reward-hacking by our tech
Read the transcript: https://www.dwarkesh.com/p/mark-zuckerberg-2
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dwarkesh-podcast/id1516093381?i=1000705423020
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/7Brv4vg9P8a8CNvAN5UsMv?si=d548a8aef39e4b65
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SPONSORS
* Scale is building the infrastructure for safer, smarter AI. Scale’s Data Foundry gives major AI labs access to high-quality data to fuel post-training, while their public leaderboards help assess model capabilities. They also just released Scale Evaluation, a new tool that diagnoses model limitations. If you’re an AI researcher or engineer, learn how Scale can help you push the frontier at https://scale.com/dwarkesh.
* WorkOS Radar protects your product against bots, fraud, and abuse. Radar uses 80+ signals to identify and block common threats and harmful behavior. Join companies like Cursor, Perplexity, and OpenAI that have eliminated costly free-tier abuse by visiting https://workos.com/radar.
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To sponsor a future episode, visit https://dwarkesh.com/advertise.
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TIMESTAMPS
(00:00:00) – How Llama 4 compares to other models
(00:12:20) – Intelligence explosion
(00:27:22) – AI friends, therapists & girlfriends
(00:35:56) – DeepSeek & China
(00:40:35) – Open source AI
(00:55:01) – Monetizing AGI
(00:59:18) – The role of a CEO
(01:02:50) – Is big tech aligning with Trump?
(01:07:56) – 100x productivity